Discuss about illegal downloading!

[Medokin]

I read in the thread "Recently viewed movies", were some guys discussed a bit about illegal downloading, so I thought it would be fun to hear what all you guy's think about this?

First of all, I dont know the different prices in your countries, but here in Sweden, they are way to high, both for music and movies, but even games.
So, I think that downloading "illegaly" as it is, is a way for us to tell the music/movie/game business to but a lower price on there products.
But now someone sais:
- Dont you think they shall get paid for what they are doing?

Yes I think so, and they are still.
And why should all the music/movie/game business get so much payed as they are today, and now they complain about how much they lose when they have millions in there accounts.
I dont see any other business complain about getting to low salery.

Yes, not everyone is a big actor, artist or game producer, but today is a hole different way of getting big.
You have the internet.
It's a new way of getting new fans/viewers and so on.

People say that "illegal" downloading is stealing, but it isn't.
I'm sick of people telling that the music/movie/"game" business are losing money if you download one of there products.
This is all wrong.

Not to mention the high prices on everything, when you watch a movie that you have downloaded, doesn't mean you would have bought it in a shop.
So you cant say they lose money, because they wouldn't get the money even if you wouldn't dowload that movie.

This is kinda how it looks like (in my view of point):

You find something new, a song, a movie or a gameYou look it up on for example youtube.You download it.You listen/watch/play it.If you like it, you buy it.And then you go back to the first point, and around and around.



This got way longer then I thought if would, Im sure I have forgott something but this is what I can come up to right now. :P

Now let me hear your point of view. :D

[B.E.A.S.M]

I'll only fileshare if A) I'm broke or B) I can't find the track anywhere else, and even then I'll use blogs rather than Limewire or The Pirate Bay. Of course though, once I find it somewhere, I'll buy it.

[Alex]

Im broke all the time, so i have to download everything. But when it comes to music, if i get the money, ill buy it.

[digital*aria]

hmm. normally, im not a big fan of illegal downloading. if i really like an artist or a band or whatever, then i feel whoever is responsible for the material should be supported (by paying the price of the material).

but sometimes, i find that if you really can't find what youre looking for ANYWHERE (and i mean anywhere...) then you really might not have a choice. lets say a new album just came out. and its not on itunes or amazon or anywhere else that would allow you to download it legally. you dont see any way that it WOULD get onto those places in the near future and the album isnt in any local stores or overseas stores that would be able to ship it to you. there's not much you can do- especially if you're one of those people who HAS to have whatever theyre looking for and soon.

THEN i could see where illegal downloading would be okay.

but im also not a big fan of it because sometimes the quality is really bad...

[Medokin]

but im also not a big fan of it because sometimes the quality is really bad...


Maybe your looking in the wrong places. ;)

Haha, no but as you said, of course they should get paid, and as you do, I buy the things I like, and from the people I support.

[simscube]

I pirate a lot, but I have no job, I do school all the time. Its my main focus actually. Most often, I buy what I pirate when I actually can, but unfortunately, I can't afford to buy often

[herrn]

Sweden

todays our last day with internet privacy. ****ing hell.

[DJ_Sam_909]

I think illegal downloading can be a bit useful for stuff like getting rare tracks for music or game demos that aren't released any more but I prefer to actually go out and buy CDs/ DVDs/ games so that I actually have an original copy rather than having to back up everything to save storage space.

[spamwichx]

i could never illegaly download daft punk.
i'd actually pay for music that i really really like.

[Australian]

I heard that the police found a new way to catch downloaders...
Anyway, there is so many people downloading, it's impossible to stop that.

[Medokin]

I heard that the police found a new way to catch downloaders...
Anyway, there is so many people downloading, it's impossible to stop that.


In what country?

[tohis]

So true, so true, but on some things I have to disagree.
(1. sorry for my sometimes crappy English, 2. sorry for my sometimes incoherent thoughts -- I'm tired. :B 3. sorry for the too-damn-long comment...)

Prices don't matter that much in the end: there's even been researces (sp?) about price drops, and yes, it does help to some degree, but not "super much". Think about it - if you'd get movie DVDs for $5 each, would you buy it? If it was your favorite, yes, but some neverheardof?

Of course I understand the "download -> watch -> if you like, buy, if you don't like, don't buy", but how many actually do it that way? Again, yes, if it's your favorite or you loved it, you'll buy (*), but what about if you don't LOVE it, but rather thought "nah, it was okay, might watch it again sometime" -- would you still buy the movie?
(* maybe: nowadays you can download **** as if they were straight from the producer's laptop -- why bother buying a dvd for its fancy covers when you've already downloaded and burned it, highest quality, on a dvd?)

+ do you have any ideas how much making a movie or a game or whatever costs? If we sold games at, say, $5.00 per game (which would still be a way too high a price for quite many people), it'd have to be a HUGE hit to be able to get enough profit to cover all the costs (incl. development, management, cleaning of the office, etcetc). Add to this that often a production company (who actually makes the movie or w/e) has to have some kind of a publisher / marketing company before they get the movie/whatever to the public -> said company will be all evil and take a huge chunk of the profit -> the price of the movie/game just can't be $0.05 a game/movie/w/e (UNLESS it really is a huge hit).

+ I totally understand the "if it's not in any local store or amazon or whatever -> the only chance to get it is to download it". Fortunately nowadays it's becoming easier and easier to buy things: e.g. from my own experience: 1) some never-heard-of Japanese artist: local stores, no; amazon etc big (and smaller) sites, no; so what to do? Google **** up, and voila, found it on a Japanese record store's site. 2) A friend heard of this really REALLY underground never-heard-of (here in Finland) band, didn't find them on any records store sites etcetc whatsoever -> emailed the band's PR/whatever department, and voila, she got all of their albums. (And even some additional stuff for free.)

+ I also understand the view that "illegal" downloading might be a way for e.g. new, aspiring(?) artists to make themselves known -- it's just, yeah, so they got big - now what to do when some of their fans just refuse to pay for the albums because they "got it for free earlier, so why pay now"?

+ I think this might be a Huge Thing for our spoiled generation: we know that you can get everything for free, so why pay for it? But by the time we have children and grand children etc, they probably have developed a new "renting" system or such, and maybe, just maybe, the new generations will be wise enough to obediently pay at least something, so that the production companies etc. will have motivation (in this case: enough money to live) to keep making movies, games, etc.

+ And why should all the music/movie/game business get so much payed as they are today, and now they complain about how much they lose when they have millions in there accounts.
I dont see any other business complain about getting to low salery.
Oh hoh hoh, if only you knew. (Not to be meant offensive; rather the pessimistic "why is life so unfair?" kind of thought.) For example here in Finland it's huge news that you don't get paid too much being a game developer (unless you happen to be one of those guys who developed Max Payne......) -> talented programmers rather go earn some money making programs for Nokia or the government or whatever, because accounting programs actually sell -> the companies get enough money to pay the great salaries. So when that happens, there's not much innovation or competition or companies that make games -> ****ty situation for the consumers. (NOTE: I've no idea how e.g. the game industry is in, e.g., the US -- for all I know even the measly office assistant could be getting $10,000.00 a month even at some measly company, but somehow I doubt that.)
Then again, I do know that sometimes the money doesn't quite balance: actors and actresses get paid millions for one movie, while the light guys and catering and such "smaller" workers get sometimes quite ****ty pay. And yes, we all remember e.g. Metallica's Lars "The Billioner Gazillioner" Ulrich's fight against e.g. Napster. But still, those kind of big names are a small portion of the whole industries. (Even if, IMHO, something should really be done about these guys getting billions while the guy who feeds them can barely pay his rent.)


But summa summarum, I kind of support "illegal" downloading (good way to find new music, etc), while on the other hand I don't: if people don't buy our games / paid only $1 a game, I'd be living in a cardboard box. :---B

+ I'm pretty much in love with e.g. Trent Reznor (NIN) etc etc "cool guys" for trying to find new ways to offer their music for free but still get money for it. Hope they can think of, or at least inspire other people to think of, new, better ways to offer stuff to consumers - while getting money to buy food.


PS. SVERIGE RULES! because of the case Pirate Bay crew VS. Sony etc Big Names. Fascinating to see what the court will decide (when it ends in, lessee, five years?). :D

PPS. Again, I am so, SO sorry for this looooong comment, but as you might notice, this subject is something "close to my heart". ;)

[Medokin]

+ I also understand the view that "illegal" downloading might be a way for e.g. new, aspiring(?) artists to make themselves known -- it's just, yeah, so they got big - now what to do when some of their fans just refuse to pay for the albums because they "got it for free earlier, so why pay now"?

Of course not everyone will pay when there is for free, but Im sure most of them would, and btw, I think artist's make the big money from conserts, and it's proven (?), (in Sweden) that the consert's have been selling much more now.

It could work like this too:
You find the artist on youtubeYou dowload it, and dig it.You dont buy the albumYou go to the artist's conserts

Or?



+ And why should all the music/movie/game business get so much payed as they are today, and now they complain about how much they lose when they have millions in there accounts.
I dont see any other business complain about getting to low salery.
Oh hoh hoh, if only you knew. (Not to be meant offensive; rather the pessimistic "why is life so unfair?" kind of thought.)

I think I didn't made myself clear :P
What I meant was, when someone else complain about there salery, nothing happens, but when the movie/music/game company complain, something hase to happen.

[JPML014]

Illegal downloading is good if you can't find what you are downloading anywhere else or if you want to discover an artist's music. I think it's not good at all if you actually have the means to get an album or track (money and somewhere to get it) but prefer to download it.

I'm also a big supporter of material format (Vinyl and CD), so it makes me somewhat sad that record stores everywhere are closing because of downloads (legal and illegal).

[DJPixcell]

I'm normally broke..

so I usually do the same thing. If the new release is good (and I know that it is) I will usually buy it.. plus if its something by an artist that I like such as Daft Punk or Deadmau5, I will buy it regardless. ;)


As for movies.. I don't find a point of buying them. I will watch them once or twice, then I usually don't have the need to watch them again. Thats why I usually watch movies online. (ie. watch-movies-links.net [formally watch-movies])

I don't download games.. if games are for my xbox there is usually a demo before its released so I can try it before I can buy it. Plus there would be no way to download games for my xbox unless I modded my xbox which I have no intrest in doing, i'm fine with purchasing legal games. Computer games.. I'm not really into, except for a select few (ex; dawn of war, halo, various others), I suppose they would be worth downloading.. but because I do not have a computer anymore (I use my parents PC now) there is close to no near ammount of space needed to download and install any game. (approx 2 gb of HD space left lol)

Thats all I suppose.. great topic starter Medokin, I didn't think I could write that much about it. lol (so ps thanks to anyone who read that whole thing haha)

ps. lol I would deffenitly buy lots more DVD's if they were $5 each. Instead of a whopping 25+ $ for it not worth it in my book. Like for petes sake, DVD-R discs are cheaper than CD-R discs!

[gunner45]

I do not know why thay are making so big deal a about it, long time ago was it legal but now its eligal, wich makes harder for hte police and fbi, if it was there before i will be there here forever , downloading eligal will not stop., but sure someday will microsoft or some other company make O.S thats stops downloading piricay. but that will be like 2015 , and that will be much harder beaause the technologic is groing up.
Sorry for my english.

[Aimforthehead]

Hard topic for me. I do download illegally, but I'm not one to try and defend it saying that's it's 100% right, if you catch my drift.

It's good in a way, necessary even, to spread the word about new artists and albums and things. It's good for the artists (in one aspect) because it gets their stuff out there and people listen to it more.

It's also good for the listeners because it lets us hear the music and decide if we really like it before spending money on it. I think I end up deleting about 40% of what I download because I don't like it. Imagine if I was actually paying for all of that...jeez. Yes, I know a lot of people don't buy what they like...well, that imo, is wrong. I don't buy EVERYthing I like, but if I really want to support the band, I will.

But then it's bad too, in other ways, because some artists (film makers/game designers, whatever) aren't making as much money as they used to, apparently. And it's also, I think, making the actual value of music - not the cost - but the way people think of it, go down because it's so easy and quick to get it for free.

[evilstereo]

If a person who's interested in music, especially more obscure genres, such as French House, wants to ever learn anything about the genre and still be able to pay for food, downloading is the best way to go.

Let's be honest, before Justice uploaded that remix that got them so popular, do we really think that they didn't illegally stream or download a single song to become familiar with electro music? No average, non-rich individual can afford to buy the album of every single song they like.

Sorry, WMG, but those are the facts. If anything, it helps market the artist more. If we become big fans of a band, say, Daft Punk, by discovering their music via sites like YouTube, and illegally downloading their music via torrents and sites like Skreemr, and we come to realize that we do in fact LOVE the band, then that deep inner materialist in all of us will want to own a part of it, so we'll go out and buy it. Long sentence... wow. Okay.

It's just how music is marketed today, bands and labels still make sick amounts of money via merchandise, shows, etc.


Illegally downloading movies, though... eeehhhhh, okay, but it still seems a little less morally acceptable somehow. I don't know, I stick to music, and some... programs... and.... stuff... and... Electroma that one time... because it was so rare... and ... Inter...stella.. too, and.... some Mitch Hedburg and Steven Wright stuff... and... a few other OKAY F*CK IT. Download whatever you want. ;D

[Medokin]

What about this.
In Sweden, the moviecompanies have set records in 2008, so what they are complaining about, is money the COULD have earned, and not money they have lost.

[Dark_DJ]

i download illegally all the time....no problem with it whatsoever...

for i am the dark pirate :)

oops, by writing this scentence, the police will most surely invade my privacy now and attempt to take me down...

NEVAAAR!

[Medokin]

Here's some nice reading about piracy :D
http://torrentfreak.com/paulo-coelho-supports-the-pirate-bay-090415/

[Medokin]

Thepiratebay trial

The trial started on 16 February 2009 in the district court (tingsrätt) of Stockholm, Sweden. The hearings ended on 3 March 2009 and the verdict was announced at 11:00 AM on Friday 17 April 2009: Peter Sunde, Fredrik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm and Carl Lundström were all found guilty and sentenced to one year in prison and payment of a fine of 30 million SEK (app. €2.7 million or USD 3.5 million). The defendants will appeal the verdict.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirate_Bay_trial

[melkoret]

I heard that the police found a new way to catch downloaders...
Anyway, there is so many people downloading, it's impossible to stop that.

Its mostly that these sites base their servers and sites in other countries so the US cant do ANYTHING about it ;)

[CuBuLo]

I was using my pirated ableton live yesterday and it said "copywrite copy detected" and quit on me, and now it always does that so I must but the real version.

[hani]

basically I do what most people do. when I want to listen some new music, I download it. if I like it, I buy it straight away.

[Psylark]

What you guys have said is what I do. After all, who would have found daft punk if it wasn't on the internet like youtube? Alot of DP tracks that I can't find anywhere else I mediaconvert from youtube. If I really like something that I've listened to on youtube, I will buy from iTunes. If I can't find on iTunes, then I get off youtube.

I think copyright laws are too harsh. Entertainment companies won't go poor just because maybe 20% of the population fileshare or something like that. If you like a piece of music, you should have it.

[melkoret]

I was using my pirated ableton live yesterday and it said "copywrite copy detected" and quit on me, and now it always does that so I must but the real version.

yeah ableton checks itself online without you asking :P

and sorry guys If i bought every CD or song I liked, I'd be beyond broke and couldnt afford to live!

I do buy my favourite artist's stuff usually.
and Ive never only downloaded a Daft Punk item. I always pay for a good DP

[Medokin]

All the promotion now is through internet, and it’s very good because even if the music is free now, you get international with the internet. My first single, right away after launching it on the radio in Paris, it was everywhere in the world. Even though it’s free and there is no money or no income in it, the promotion is huge, and if the track is huge, you’re going to be requested as a DJ to play everywhere in the world.


These are some very good words from him and I agree with them all.

[boombagirl]

i download if i like 1 song (we don't have singles around there).
if i love the band, i search for albums.

[staceylala]

I think copyright laws are too harsh. Entertainment companies won't go poor just because maybe 20% of the population fileshare or something like that. If you like a piece of music, you should have it.

But how is that fair to the artist?
Think about it, you can download a track for 29p or whatever it is, or buy the single for £3/4. Even an idiot would download right? Right, but then think of it from teh artists point of view, you get a certain about of the profit, if everyone if downloading the song, rather than buying the album then you're going to get a hell of a lot less. And yes people have sadi to me "It's about the artist wanting their music out there" Partly it is, but if you're making no profit, then you wont be able to tour and stuff.

Okay, Daft Punk's new album... You download it for whatever the amount is, or you buy a hard copy for double that. They're going to get more profit from you buying the hard copy. Essentially, it's the fans and the comumer who is paying the artist wadges.

[Psylark]

But how is that fair to the artist?
Think about it, you can download a track for 29p or whatever it is, or buy the single for £3/4. Even an idiot would download right? Right, but then think of it from teh artists point of view, you get a certain about of the profit, if everyone if downloading the song, rather than buying the album then you're going to get a hell of a lot less. And yes people have sadi to me "It's about the artist wanting their music out there" Partly it is, but if you're making no profit, then you wont be able to tour and stuff.

Okay, Daft Punk's new album... You download it for whatever the amount is, or you buy a hard copy for double that. They're going to get more profit from you buying the hard copy. Essentially, it's the fans and the comumer who is paying the artist wadges.


So you're saying about "hard" copies, like CDs? that's not part of illegal downloads, really. And hard copies are going to cost more because they are physical and the record label/whoever has to buy materials for like CD case, vinyl, the actual CD and burning to CD, etc. etc. And usually singles are better than the album because some stuff on the album may be bad. The artists won't go poor, if they are very good, then they WILL get the money, especially for a tour. And let's face it, most good artists we like do go on tour. the artists don't go without. Am I making sense here?

[staceylala]

No You are making sense lol. I guess it's just another personal preference thing *shrugs*

Plus I cba to argue my point for the millionth time lol.

[psychofish25]

I'm actually writing my thesis on music piracy. Once it's done I'll be sure to upload it to the blog and link you guys to it.

Basically, I mention 3 points.

- Physical music is always better, so the market is never deteoriorating
- Piracy gives popularity to the artists, and listeners is all they really want
- Most of the money from album sales goes to the record company, whereas concert and merch sales go almost directly to the artists.

Basically, piracy isn't killing the industry, it's strengthening it. Without piracy, I would have never grown accustomed to electronic music, and my blog would not exist today.

Personally, I purchase some vinyl and CDs out of respect for the artists, and because owning some tangible is effing awesome.

[tohis]

I'm actually writing my thesis on music piracy. Once it's done I'll be sure to upload it to the blog and link you guys to it.

Basically, I mention 3 points.

- Physical music is always better, so the market is never deteoriorating
- Piracy gives popularity to the artists, and listeners is all they really want
- Most of the money from album sales goes to the record company, whereas concert and merch sales go almost directly to the artists.

Basically, piracy isn't killing the industry, it's strengthening it. Without piracy, I would have never grown accustomed to electronic music, and my blog would not exist today.

Personally, I purchase some vinyl and CDs out of respect for the artists, and because owning some tangible is effing awesome.

Ah, I and many, many people I know (for example my boss) have been waiting for someone to write their thesis or such about illegal downloading (esp. if it's at least somewhat neutral; not 100% pro or anti piracy (sp?)), so be sure to upload it somewhere when it's finished, aye? :D
[Knowing how hard writing a thesis sometimes is] good luck on your work! :)

[CuBuLo]

I didn't legally own Live. One day I got a copyright message and I cant use it anymore so I just bought the full version, its really worth it.